How Gatekeeping Can Preserve Niche Communities
In this three-part interview series, I (Ashley) sat down with Devon and Drew of the Beardy & the Beast podcast to talk about aspects of the creative world, as they pertain to our very different lives and perspectives. In this portion of the interview, we spoke about gatekeeping and the idea of community in the arts world. We discuss if and how gatekeeping can be done in a positive way, and its importance in maintaining the identity and integrity of niche communities.
Full disclosure, this was originally intended to be a podcast but I had mic issues. I have edited our conversation ever-so-slightly to improve readability.
I tried to get Bing AI to make pictures representing our conversation. Bing apparently thinks Devon and Drew look like hipsters from the 2000s, and I am an old man who is slowly turning into a tree. It’s not the worst depiction, tbh.
Ashley: The first topic that I wanted to discuss with you guys is gatekeeping and the idea of community in the arts world. Be as honest as you want.
Devon: Gatekeep your hobbies. Don't let them in.
Drew: I was thinking about this the other day. My perspective is less about gatekeeping and more about keeping your communities on point. For instance, if you have a frisbee community, and someone comes in and they're like, you know, “I like My Little Pony! This entire community should be about my little pony,” you should probably be like, “Yeah, feel free to make friends here that also like My Little Pony, but this is a frisbee community. You can create a spinoff community, but you can't take over mine.” So that's my perception of how gatekeeping should be used.
Devon: I think gatekeeping is a term that people use incorrectly. Like, let's talk about collectible card games. If someone says that they're interested in Magic the Gathering, and you're interested in Magic the Gathering, you're going to start asking questions about it and seeing what they know, and people will take that as “Oh, you're testing me and you're just trying to keep me out,” where it is [more] like… No, we have a shared interest. We should be able to talk about these types of things.
Ashley: As someone who remembers when that whole Gamergate thing happened. There was a controversy about, oh my god, was it about 10, 15 years ago now on Reddit? And everybody was upset about trying to keep women out of... Trying to keep women out of games or whatever. It got pretty messy, but...
Drew: It didn't actually have anything to do with that.
Devon: That was actually them (tech companies) trying to manipulate the conversation around that. It was very much an ethics and journalism thing.
This time, it made me a woman, but kept depicting Devon and Drew as hipsters. Bing AI also appears to think that the guys have more more admiration for me than they actually do.
Ashley: Oh, and I'm familiar with that part too, and the CEO and weird censorship issues and everything. I was just trying to use that as a jumping off point and saying, I can remember people being upset around that [topic], [because] they want[ed] to keep women out of things, whether that was true or not. When in actuality, yes, I think a lot of it did have to do with the shared interests, shared background, shared knowledge...
Devon: I think… Here is a good mainstream example of why gatekeeping is important. Even though San Diego Comic Con, like Comic Cons in general are massively popular, the thing is, is that they are not what they used to be. Because it used to be about the niche comics and fans of those were the people that were going [to those conventions]. It was a kind of gatekeeping. But what ended up happened was, [for example] when Sons of Anarchy came out, and you had [a big name like] Ron Perlman now at this convention, you started getting a lot of “normies” coming in because of Sons of Anarchy, even though [Ron Pearlman] had done a lot of stuff on the comic side of things. And it completely pivoted [the tone of those conventions]. Conventions [recently] that I've gone to just don't feel the same because there's not that niche aspect to it because it wasn't “gate-kept.”
Ashley: Yeah, when something is for everybody, it's kind of for nobody.
Devon: I still go to anime conventions and, of the four major conventions here in Alberta, there's only one of them that's still decent. And they've deliberately kept themselves very small. The community has decided to keep it small.
Ashley: Can I ask who they are or–
Devon: So Animathon, and the Edmonton and Calgary ComicCons are ones that I feel have lost the plot. OdaFest in Calgary, which is an anime convention, has deliberately kept itself small. They were sold out last year, like it was 10,000 tickets, and they sent out a survey asking, “Hey, so we did this, should we look at a larger space?” and the community as a whole went, “No!” They (the community) wanted to keep [the event smaller] because it allows us to have, you know, better panels. And, you know, if you go to a viewing room, there's a chance you're actually going to be able to go and see the anime that they are trying to showcase. You're not feeling packed into all of the halls because it's a deliberately smaller group of people there.
Ashley: And it's so easy for somebody for an event to get kind of taken over or co-opted and made into something it isn't. I mean, when I was running the Foggy Isle Film Festival, I had a very clear vision of what it was supposed to be. We were showcasing creative horror comedies, just weird little quirky films. That was the thing. But I would get emails and messages from people being like, “Oh, you should have more of this or more of that!” Or there was that one asshole that tried slandering me around town because it didn't have enough local films, even though many of the local submissions sucked shit. I will say it. I don't live there anymore. But yeah, every always wants what you're doing to be [exactly] what they want, and for you to change it to [accommodate them], instead of starting something new themselves.
Devon: And they “love everything you're doing!”
Ashley: Yeah. They’re always like, “Love it! But, actually— how about you do this entirely other thing that I want to go to?”
Drew: Well, that circles around to my point. Keeping your interests and your hobbies and your communities on point and what they're actually supposed to be about. Like, if I if I have a chess club, like I don't care about the gender of the person coming in, as long as the conversation that we're having in the chess club is about chess.
Devon: No, it's Go! Damn it!
Drew: And that's why you're not allowed in my club.
It’s a metaphor?
Ashley: I mean, I do think there's quite a case to be made for like, male and female spaces, but that conversation can go down a whole different route. Um, I just want to wrap this topic up with one other point. I'm glad you guys didn't come into this opposed to the idea of gatekeeping because in a way, gate keeping is essential to Haus of Fog. Haus of Fog is meant to be kind of, well, not “neutral” because that makes us sound weak... But I want to showcase artists, comedians, filmmakers, gamers, whatever, for the sake of what they're making. [Their articles] don't have to have anything to do with their politics, with their ethnicity, with their sexuality. I don't care. And I [while] I don't want to speak on behalf of anybody else, I think everybody involved with this is on the same page. We're all sick of people being shoved into boxes. And everybody is so divided these days. I just want to create a website that is about the art, it's about what people are making and it's about fun and interesting stuff. Not everything needs to be politicized.
Although the site hasn't even launched, I’ve already had someone – a filmmaker I respect – they wanted me to help to promote a film they are working on with a heavily politicized topic. But whether I agree with their film’s message or not, it’s not what Haus of Fog is about. Let’s take a topic like abortion for example. You’re either for or against it. If someone believes that it’s a medical miracle and everyone should get a thousand of them, their mind isn’t going to be swayed by someone that thinks it’s baby murder. And if you think it’s baby murder, you’re not going to have your mind changed by someone that loves abortions. I used pretty extreme view points in my example, but hopefully you get the point that I’m trying to make. I just want to work to just make an interesting website and not have it become political, in either direction.
Devon: And just to play off that, that's one of the big things that we generally try to do with our podcasts. You can’t avoid it [politics] but, the idea is we're here to talk about the movies. And one thing you got to remember is, [you can gatekeep] a film by not showing it, but also the film should stand on its own.
Ashley: Exactly. It's good for things to, I mean, we should all be exposed to different viewpoints, but there is a difference between expressing yourself [through art] and preaching at others. I have watched so many films which have said things that I've agreed with, or I at least understood the message that they were going for in their film, but when it starts getting preachy, I just, I can't. I can't care anymore. Okay, do either of you have anything else to say about gatekeeping?
Drew: Uh, gatekeep your hobbies.
Devon: Gatekeep them, one hundred percent.
Ashley: Keep them hidden, keep them safe.
Drew: Well, don't let people subvert what it's about is essentially what it's about. Like, welcome someone with similar interests with open arms, but, um, don't let them change the fundamental aspects of what it is.
Devon: And the inverse of that, if you're someone trying to get into a hobby, people asking what you know about it and “quizzing” you on said hobby, isn't them gatekeeping, it's them trying to engage with you. When you look at something like anime, there are so many different types of genres out there, that you have to ask questions to see [what] others view points are. That's not them gatekeeping, it's trying to actually engage with you.
Drew: The one thing that I have to throw out there real quick is that nerdy dudes generally [haven’t] had a great social track record in the past with communicating with girls trying to enter that space. So, if they're trying to be like, “Hey, I like this thing. What do you know about it?” It might've come off as abrasive and, um, exclusionary. There are many reasons why people might feel pushed out [of a community], but if you try to engage on the same level you're being engaged with, you'll generally be accepted.
Devon & Drew
The bio that they submitted simply said, "Drew and Devon: Hosts of Beardy and the Beast, Assholes." Because that is only partially relevant to Haus of Fog though, it should be noted that they are also into music (creating and listening to), gaming, and could be described as nerds in the 2000s-sense, and not the weird, modern, obsessed with Disney-kind of nerdery.
Instagram: @atbeardy
ASHLEY GOOD
Ashley Good is the brains behind Haus of Fog. After directing the Foggy Isle Film Festival, which shone a spotlight on dark/horror indie shorts for the past five years, she decided to launch Haus of Fog to better reach her niche of fellow film weirdos. You can learn more about her work at ashleygood.ca.
Instagram: @ashleyegood | Youtube: @ashleyegood